Talk:Area boundary/Portal jumping project
Thanks for doing this for me ;o I planned to check some portals myself. Anyhow, approx. where do you find the End of the World? Half a compass away? If you could upload some screens or explain where EotW occurs, you'd get 5 free s :> --- -- ( ) (talk) 17:05, 17 May 2009 (UTC) :For the explorable zones, the ends of the world seem to be roughly about the full width of the compass away from the portal, give or take a bit. Basically, it seems that each zone's terrain is a rectangular portion of the map (as would be expected) with a little bit of the terrain of surrounding zones loaded. Regent Valley seemed to have the most explorable out of the ones with the end of the world (and was the most interesting of the ends-of-the-world I've found so far, with landmasses apparently hanging in midair), but not much more, though. Sadly, however, in nearly every case, it didn't open up anything that appeared to be new, or even enough to save a cartographer any time... The mob-free exploration of Dragon's Gullet is the only truly helpful thing I've found so far. :( :I'm debating whether or not I'll even attempt to this in Elona or the Eye of the North zones. It's enough of a pain figuring out where the trigger points for the portals in Tyria are, and they are usually at least pretty close to the visible portal. It'd be much more difficult in Nightfall and Eye of the North. Nwash 17:20, 17 May 2009 (UTC) ::I found those in EotN to be pretty reliable visually. Might be ignorance from my side, though :P As for EotW: Hmm.. why is Lennok -> Shing Jea Mon. so much different then? Weird. Did make me think of something... Gimme a few minutes and I'll get back. --- -- ( ) (talk) 17:26, 17 May 2009 (UTC) :::You can walk into Sunqua Vale ~a compass using the Lennok->SJM jump. Still odd why it doesn't do that with SJM. --- -- ( ) (talk) 17:35, 17 May 2009 (UTC) ::::It has to be because Linnok Courtyard and Monastery Overlook are so small. It might be that these two and Shing Jea Monastery are all the same resource, at least as far as terrain goes. Even together, they're much smaller than most zones. (Edit: read your comment more closely.) Nwash 17:41, 17 May 2009 (UTC) :::::Sounds reasonable. Even when going from Saoshang Trail into Linnok -> SJM (cannot go from Linnok to Saoshang without zoning, btw) gives the same result. --- -- ( ) (talk) 17:52, 17 May 2009 (UTC) ::::::Well, my results in Kryta may put a hole in the single resource theory. When crossing from Cursed Lands to Nebo Terrace, I could explore Beetletun, Bergen Hot Springs, and a bit of North Kryta Province and Watchtower Coast and all of Nebo Terrace. Jumping from Watchtower Coast to Beetletun, though, apparently didn't load the same resource, as I encountered end of the world in Nebo Terrace. I'm not exactly sure what could account for that. Nwash 20:45, 17 May 2009 (UTC) I must be terrible at explaining what I mean :P You can go from Saoshang Trail to Linnok without rezoning. It gives the same end result as Linnok -> SJM, though, so there's little use in it. --- -- ( ) (talk) 18:25, 17 May 2009 (UTC) :There is another trick to explore more: use a place that has two entries, go outside one entry, shadow step inside and shadow step outside other entry. It worked for copperhammer mines & spearkheadpeak.-- -- ( talk ) 18:28, 17 May 2009 (UTC) :Heh, that's my fault. I'm probably not reading things too well because I'm crossing my eyes to see where foggy portals are meeting the ground. >.> (Correction made.) :And since other people are getting involved now, I guess I'll create a section on here for others to list their shadow stepping results. Might end up more organized that way. Nwash 18:35, 17 May 2009 (UTC) How to control random behavior ? It might take ages to get behind a portal..-- -- ( talk ) 19:06, 17 May 2009 (UTC) :Thankfully, we don't have to do that anymore. Bring heroes or henchmen; 4, 6, or 8 is probably best. Figure out where the portal triggers and get as close to that as you can, then turn around 180 degrees. One of the heroes or henchmen should walk into the perfect position right in front of you; target him or her and activate Heart of Shadow or Viper's Defense. (I will note that I did it the hard way to finish my Canthan cartography last week, but last week, Heart of Shadow and Viper's Defense still shadow stepped only to random locations.) Nwash 19:11, 17 May 2009 (UTC) :Heart of Shadow and Viper's Defense aren't random anymore. I use a hero, Anton. I position him at the portal, target myself. He will shadowstep directly away from me. Press F5 (hotkey for HoS on Antons bar), V (target nearest ally -> Anton), 1 (Shadow Meld to Anton). Voila. Unless he teleports back to you because he 'zones' :P :You can also use HoS yourself, of course, which might be more convenient (MUCH MORE convenient, actually), but I don't have it on my Ele. Position a hero a bit away from the portal, stand between the hero and the portal, target hero, press HoS. However, if you cannot go there, or position yourself wrong, you'll zone to the other area. This does not occur using the HoS/SMeld trick I use. :HoS and VD are interchangable, of course. --- -- ( ) (talk) 19:14, 17 May 2009 (UTC) ::Hmmm, it'd be interesting to see if you get different results than I do. My ele does know Heart of Shadow, and I've been shadow stepping across the portals myself. Nwash 19:24, 17 May 2009 (UTC) :::Unlikely. Anton jumps equally far, and hugs the portals quite nicely :) Although I did Shadow Meld into the portal once, due to sloppy positioning of Anton. --- -- ( ) (talk) 19:32, 17 May 2009 (UTC) ::::True, but Anton shouldn't trigger the portal either way. What matters in your case is the range of Shadow Meld, though it may not be any different and you may be right anyway. You might have to ability to flag Anton around on the other side to reposition him, though, and if there is some greater range to Shadow Meld, it might work where my method isn't. Still, it probably won't necessarily be any less tricky. Nwash 19:44, 17 May 2009 (UTC) :::::If you can't stand there, I can't either. If a hero / hench would trigger a portal, they instantly teleport towards the player (and ignore any flags until a new one is placed). --- -- ( ) (talk) 20:21, 17 May 2009 (UTC) Heroes will walk through the portal to Sunspear Sanctuary from Marga Coast, use a target ally shadow step like Return or Ebon Escape once you've flagged them far enough through. I don't know if heroes will walk through any other portals though. Can provide video if necessary. --XT-8147 02:12, 25 May 2009 (UTC) :I remember seeing it on one other, but I forget which one now. I think it was a portal in Elona too. What did you see on the other side, though? Was it just Sunspear Sanctuary, a dead end, or an End of the world? Nwash 05:33, 25 May 2009 (UTC) ::End of the world. Video --XT-8147 05:02, 26 May 2009 (UTC) :::Awesome! It would be nice if it was more, but yeah, every little bit counts! I didn't add the portals to the Sunspear Sanctuary to the list because I didn't think they'd be useful to cartographers, but clearly I was mistaken. I will fix this in a few hours or so when I have more time, and then I'll make sure this gets on the Grandmaster cartography guide. Nwash 10:40, 26 May 2009 (UTC) ::::I checked this with a character that hasn't done much exploration in Elona yet, and yeah, it adds only about 0.1%. Nwash 13:57, 26 May 2009 (UTC) Shadow Step Results Re: Merty "There is another trick to explore more: use a place that has two entries, go outside one entry, shadow step inside and shadow step outside other entry. It worked for copperhammer mines & spearkheadpeak." You only need to jump inside Copperhammer; the portal towards Spearhead is disfunctional. There's an End of the World effect in Spearhead, though. I tried it a minute ago :) --- -- ( ) (talk) 18:46, 17 May 2009 (UTC) :Ah you're right...here's another one: stepping back from granite/tasca's demise to spearhead peak-- -- ( talk ) 19:10, 17 May 2009 (UTC) ::Update, hey this is actually usefull: you can explore Spearhead Peak complete, let me give you a cut&paste for the page: -- -- ( talk ) 14:19, 19 May 2009 (UTC) :::Awesome. I decided to confirm this since I hadn't explored Spearhead Peak yet. Kinda interesting how the end of the world in Copperhammer Mines can't actually be reached, though it can be seen. Nwash 19:08, 19 May 2009 (UTC) Maybe... Maybe add a legend that explains what Bold and Italics are :> I figured out myself after reading them, but I think it's more convenient to know beforehand. --- -- ( ) (talk) 17:42, 18 May 2009 (UTC) :Right. I planned to add some notes for anyone who wants to help after I've typed up the Elona section. I'll make sure to add a legend for that too. Nwash 17:48, 18 May 2009 (UTC) Move to GuildWiki: Since I don't really intend this to be a "personal" project anymore, would it be more appropriate for this to be in the GuildWiki: namespace? Nwash 05:44, 25 May 2009 (UTC) :Mainspace would be fine too. Links should be added to the two skills as well. 06:03, 25 May 2009 (UTC) ::Agree, this will get more attention if it is in main space. However, it is always possible Anet "fixes" this jumping around and makes this obsolete. But for the time beeing..-- -- ( talk ) 07:10, 25 May 2009 (UTC) :::Okay, it is done. Let the admins decide if I've done the right thing! Nwash 08:02, 25 May 2009 (UTC) ::::Reverted move into GuildWiki: for now. This is now linked from the main page, but in GuildWiki, it wouldn't come up on many users' search results by default. I do agree that by the typical usage of namespaces, GuildWiki is more appropriate, but it might be better to wait on that for a while. Nwash 14:48, 25 May 2009 (UTC) :::::Sorry, I didn't notice this discussion. — Balistic 15:17, 25 May 2009 (UTC) ::::::It's okay. Reverting is quick. :) Nwash 10:40, 26 May 2009 (UTC) Mainpage? Should we draw attention to this by linking it from the mainpage (What's New)? --◄mendel► 09:41, 25 May 2009 (UTC) :It could be a good idea. There's no way to predict how long these skills will keep this functionality. I suspect we may not be in danger of that, as the project so far has found that it works on only a fraction of the portals and only a fraction of those are useful, but still, there is no way to be sure. Nwash 09:55, 25 May 2009 (UTC) Too many ends Usually we only link to a page once from any given article because it makes adjusting links easier; so ideally, I'd like all of the "documented on End of the world" notices to be replaced by a single general note at the top once they all have been documented - until then it serves as a reminder which have been documented and which have not. --◄mendel► 01:38, 2 June 2009 (UTC) :That was the idea. Of course, I can just not link them when I leave those reminders if you prefer. Nwash 19:24, 7 June 2009 (UTC) You guys are insanely crazy and have way too much time on your hands. :/ From Tasca's Demise to The Granite Citadel I dont think From Tasca's Demise to The Granite Citadel is working anymore.... can anyone give it a try because i cant seem to get through... :It still works. This is one of those portals where the visible haze is a little off from where the portal actually is. Make sure you're using a hero or henchmen to figure out where it actually is and get as close as you can without zoning. Nwash 07:33, 8 June 2009 (UTC) Shadow stepping through walls It is possible to shadow step through many of the walls surrounding portals, as for some reason they don't obstruct. Yuki Winterchill :They will only obstruct if you cannot walk behind 'em*. The area next to a portal is almost always accesible by walking*, thus you can shadowstep through the wall. :Good catch, though... Nwash, want to go over most of them again to re-check? ;) *=ignoring portals--- -- ( ) (talk) 19:52, 8 June 2009 (UTC) ::It does look like our negative results may have to be rechecked. Yuki's found something I haven't been attempting, and I don't know if anyone else has been either. I have to work, but when I get a chance, I'll give it a try and update the test procedure if no one beats me to it. Nwash 03:56, 9 June 2009 (UTC) :::Okay, verified that it does indeed work... took me a little while to find the right angle, though. That one is fussy. Time to update things... and time to think about a lot of rechecking... whimper whimper... :::But for the record, you are now officially awesome, Yuki. Nwash 13:17, 9 June 2009 (UTC) ::::Hehe, thanks. I'll probably spend most of the night checking portals, so that's a bit of work off your hands. Want to try to explore Command Post for Cartography ^^ Yuki Winterchill :::::I've managed to verify a number of your results, but maybe we're going to have to try to be more specific. These are much fussier than the straight portal jumps. On the other hand, they don't seem too terribly inconsistent (they all seem to be somewhat fussy), so maybe the note about retrying is enough? I'm not sure right now... Nwash 07:43, 10 June 2009 (UTC) Between Arkjok Ward and Jahai Bluffs I'm quite confused about this rezone. I have tried so many times now I have lost count, each time I get normal rezone and yet the article says you can shadow step around the portal. What does "around the portal" mean? I have tried approximately 45 different angles and methods and have not managed to get through in either direction. Some help would be appreciated :) -- 09:06, 10 June 2009 (UTC) :I haven't managed to do that one myself yet. Probably have to shadow step through the doorway, then through some of the scenery. I'll try this later and say how if I manage. Yuki Winterchill ::That makes three of us that have failed so far. I'm going to update it to say that's an unconfirmed result, especially since it doesn't even tell us which way. Nwash 09:29, 10 June 2009 (UTC) :::from arkjok ward -> jahai bluffs you can shadow step around the portal http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx306/sk1134/gw088.jpg http://i766.photobucket.com/albums/xx306/sk1134/gw089.jpg i didn't start screen shotting start points til much later, but i do remember it was from the left side of portal SK1134 new table format? I would like to change the table format into a big sortable one. Here's how: "step" would get a tick if someone achieved the shadowstep. "End" would get ticked if an end has been found and documented on End of the world. You could sort the "Verified" column to find out which portals haven't been checked. The Location/table lists the number of exits, I added teh column because getting into outposts with 1 exit only has no benefit. Ask Tennessee Ernie Ford how to get this table back into Excel. --◄mendel► 10:24, 10 June 2009 (UTC) :I like this idea. Maybe add a column for a link to some notes on specific portals though. What I'm thinking is for those cases that are unusually fussy or have further anomalies, we could add a subsection to a notes section below and tuck a link to the anchor in a far right column. That way, we aren't sacrificing that information and keeping it easy to get to, but can still keep the table compact. Nwash 10:31, 10 June 2009 (UTC) ::Err, my bad... we can throw that in the notes column. Don't ask me how I missed that... >.> Nwash 10:34, 10 June 2009 (UTC) :::One more thing... let's add a Grand column for my benefit for those I've been adding to the Grandmaster cartography guide. I know only a few actually have cartography benefits, but then, those are the most important of the lot and the primary reason for doing this. Nwash 10:39, 10 June 2009 (UTC) ::::Ok, I added the column as "Xplor", and it gets a "yes" or "no" depending on whether stepping through the portal helps exploration or not. (Or instead of the , just add the estimated benefit (0.1% in most cases)? --◄mendel► 10:51, 10 June 2009 (UTC) :::::That looks good. I figure it's probably best to replace the table format all at once, so should I do this in my sandbox until the whole thing is ready to go? (I figure I can start on this in a hour or two, most likely. I might be able to finish it all today too.) Edit: On the exits column, is there any template I can use as a subst:, or do I have to manually look that up? Nwash 10:57, 10 June 2009 (UTC) ::::::I was going to look into doing it semiautomatically, but that's probably not going to be faster than doing it manually - and I don't know when I can get around to it. ::::::It doesn't need to be done all at once, you can have the new format at the top and the unconverted rest at the bottom, and it would be enough to create the "↔", "region", "from" and "to" columns from the old first column and dump the second column into "notes" for a start, and then convert these step by step. ::::::I guess I want to say, don't do it in your sandbox, do it "live". Also, just leave the exits empty, and have somebody look them up later in the big list? There is no template to subst: right now. --◄mendel► 11:09, 10 June 2009 (UTC) & 11:12, 10 June 2009 (UTC) :::::::Just for the record, I plan to finish the work in two more passes. On the next pass, I'll fill in the step, xplor, end, and verify columns while removing the redundant information from the notes. On the last pass, I'll fill in the exits column. I won't be able to get to either until tomorrow morning, though. Nwash 17:20, 10 June 2009 (UTC) Amazing work, fast and thorough! Being able to quickly sort by the "Xplor" column is a definite win. --◄mendel► 09:22, 12 June 2009 (UTC) :I had been planning to move the longer notes out of the table to the end and use anchor links, but the table looks alright even with the longer notes. Unless someone else thinks they should be moved, I think I'll consider this MASSIVE EDIT complete. Oh, and you're making me blush... Nwash 10:06, 12 June 2009 (UTC) ................... Who the hell cares? You are just finding glitches in the game that have no benefits whatsoever besides maybe cartographer title. Get some lives Master Stalfos 00:13, 11 June 2009 (UTC) :Hey, it's a game. Playing GW isn't exactly "getting a life" in any case, so what's the difference? --◄mendel► 06:32, 11 June 2009 (UTC) :: You (Stalfos) appear to possess very little understanding of how human history, civilization, and development has been shaped by the species' tendency to indulge its curiousity about seemingly meaningless or trivial pursuits. Don't discourage that trait so easily, or arrogantly. -- AudreyChandler 06:40, 11 June 2009 (UTC) :::Also, I'm going to drop a bomb next to you, and then when it explodes and you crumple to the ground I'll swing my sword 3-4 times. 08:03, 11 June 2009 (UTC) ::::Haha, silly. Sword first, then bomb. -- AudreyChandler 09:11, 11 June 2009 (UTC) ::::: *Wonders whether doing it next to a portal would make him pass through without zoning* Yuki ::::::Lol at Audrey, no need to be so harsh. The only place I'd bother doing this portal thing is at the well known Luxon place (I forgot the name) as hax is pretty cool, but I see not real point in this. Yeah, maybe to get cartographer, but meh. --[[User:Simonium|'smøni']]walky talky 17:15, 11 June 2009 (UTC) ::::::: I'm not being harsh, just realistic. You'll never win if you insist on dropping bombs first. -- AudreyChandler 17:59, 11 June 2009 (UTC) :::::::: Maybe try playing the game for real...or have people gotten so bored of this game that they are turning to this? Master Stalfos 22:42, 11 June 2009 (UTC) ::::::::: k, I'm getting the impression you're only here to troll. If that is incorrect, and you legitimately wish to understand their motivations, I will gladly continue this discussion with you until the universe collapses. -- AudreyChandler 00:13, 12 June 2009 (UTC) :::::::::: The master doesn't realize that there are different types of RPG players, and the "researcher" is one of them — he clearly is not. --◄mendel► 05:54, 12 June 2009 (UTC) :::::::::::Master Stalfos, how do you know we won't discover cold fusion or the universal theory of quantum relativity while shadow stepping through portals? It could happen. --Macros 06:08, 12 June 2009 (UTC) ::::::::::::I am reasonably confident that the order is bomb -> sword. 06:16, 12 June 2009 (UTC) :::::::::::::In Wind Waker. But you shouldn't be using the sword, anyway - stun with the Boomerang, smash with the Skull Hammer. Dead. Entropy ( ) 07:04, 12 June 2009 (UTC) :::::::::::::: ← Resetting indent : Resetting indent → Oh. I've never played Wind Waker or Twilight Princess, so my knowledge of how to fight Japanese skeletons comes mostly from Link to the Past and Link's Awakening (which always makes me CRY at the end). And anyway, the specific boss named "Master Stalfos" appears in Link's Awakening (he stole the Hookshot, the bastard), and definitely gets whacked → bombed, not the other way around. -- AudreyChandler 07:33, 12 June 2009 (UTC) ::Sword once, then Bomb Arrows so you can cheat the dungeon and kill him four times instead of one. It gives you extra small keys, too! Entropy ( ) 22:51, 12 June 2009 (UTC) ::: :O :O :O ::: I am so digging my Game Boy Color out of the darkest depths of my closet just to try that. -- AudreyChandler 22:56, 12 June 2009 (UTC) :::: Haha wow i am just now getting the reference with the bombs...I'm a big Zelda fan and i didn't get that, how dare i... Master Stalfos 15:59, 14 June 2009 (UTC) Raisu Palace and Imperial Sanctum I can fully understand why people want to challenge this particular result. It took me many attempts to confirm it, but it is possible to shadow step through the wall near this portal and get around this portal's massive trigger area, assuming you choose the right side of the portal. It isn't an easy one, but it has been verified. That said, the Raisu Pavilion to Raisu Palace jump is easier since the guard standing outside is in a wonderful position for the shadow step through the wall. Nwash 18:08, 18 June 2009 (UTC) screenshots of my portal jumps for those who wish to contest my portal jumps, go through my screenshots http://s766.photobucket.com/albums/xx306/sk1134/